Excerpts from Transcripts in the Wee Care Case

With Comments Taken from some of the Legal Briefs

"The irony in the Michaels case is that it was Kelly Michaels who was in the dock, though there was no evidence against her, while there are pages and pages documenting how Lou Fonolleras and his colleagues tried to corrupt the Wee Care children."

Rich Lowry, National Review

(Note: some children were interviewed by more than one interviewer at a time)

(In this excerpt, the child is using an anatomically correct doll, but doesn't seem to understand that the doll is supposed to represent a person)

INVESTIGATOR: What little girls did she do that to?

CHILD: (names a child)

INVESTIGATOR: Who?

CHILD: (repeats)

INVESTIGATOR: really

INVESTIGATOR: You want to show us again what she did with the fork?

INVESTIGATOR (2): Show us again what you just showed us

INVESTIGATOR: She put the fork where?

CHILD: The vagina

INVESTIGATOR: OK, whose vagina?

CHILD: um

INVESTIGATOR: Do you know. Who, honey?

CHILD: Down there.

INVESTIGATOR: OK but who's this little girl?

CHILD: Huh?

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever see Kelly have blood in her vagina?

CHILD: This is blood

INVESTIGATOR: Kelly had blood in her vagina

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: She did? Did you ever get any of that blood on your penis?

CHILD: No. Green blood

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever see any of your friends get blood on their penis from her vagina?

CHILD: Not green blood but red blood

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Tell me something, tell me about the piss box. The piss box that's in the music room?

CHILD: No, up there. All the way up there

INVESTIGATOR: Is the piss box the bench at the piano? When you open up the bench: is that the piss box?

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: It is?

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: And what happened, she would open it up?

CHILD: And, popped it up

CHILD: She popped it up and then what would you do?

CHILD: Jump in it?

INVESTIGATOR: Jump in it?

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: And would you have to pee in it?

AL Yeah

(about 10 questions later, the topic comes up again)

INVESTIGATOR: So the pee-pee box is the bench at the piano and you flip it open?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: What is the pee-pee box?

CHILD: This is the pee-pee box

INVESTIGATOR: That's not a pee-pee box. That's a crayon box

* * * * * * *

Q.: Did Kelly ever make you kiss her on the butt?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: Did Kelly ever say--I'll tell you what. When did Kelly say these words? Piss, shit, sugar?

CHILD: Piss, shit sugar?

INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, when did she say that, what did you have to do in order for her to say that?

CHILD: I didn't say that.

INVESTIGATOR: I know, she said it, but what did you have to do?

* * * * * * *

(In this section, the child is asked to use anatomically detailed dolls and different utensils)

INVESTIGATOR: Okay, I really need your help on this. Did you have to do anything to her with this stuff?

CHILD: Okay. Where's the big knife at. Show me where's the big knife at.

INVESTIGATOR: Pretend this is the big knife because we don't have a big knife

CHILD: This is a big one

INVESTIGATOR: Okay, what did you have to do with that? What did you have to...

CHILD: No� take the peanut - put the peanut butter

INVESTIGATOR: You put what's that, what did you put there?

CHILD: I put jelly right here

INVESTIGATOR: Jelly

CHILD: And I put jelly on her mouth and on the eyes

INVESTIGATOR: You put jelly on her eyes and her vagina and her mouth

CHILD: On her back, on her socks

INVESTIGATOR: And did you have to put anything else down there?

CHILD: Right there, right here and right here and here

INVESTIGATOR: You put peanut butter all over? And where else did you put the peanut butter?

CHILD: And jelly

INVESTIGATOR: And jelly?

CHILD: And we squeezed orange on her.

INVESTIGATOR: And you had to squeeze an orange on her?

CHILD: Put orange juice on her

INVESTIGATOR: And did anybody--how did everybody take it off? How did she make you take it off?

CHILD: No. Lick her all up, eat her all up and lick her all up

INVESTIGATOR: You had to lick her all up?

CHILD: And eat her all up

INVESTIGATOR: Yeah? What did it taste like?

CHILD: Yucky

INVESTIGATOR: So she made you eat the peanut butter and jelly and the orange juice off of the vagina too? (Notice the investigator, not the child, says vagina, twice, and the investigator doesn't ask about the peanut butter on the socks, or the neck)

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: Was that scary or funny?

CHILD: Funny, funny and scary.

Repeated questions

INVESTIGATOR: When Kelly kissed you, did she ever put her tongue in your mouth?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: Did she ever make you put her tongue in her mouth?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever have to kiss her vagina?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: Which of the kids had to kiss her vagina?

CHILD: What's this?

INVESTIGATOR: No that's my toy, my radio box. Which kids had to kiss her vagina?

CHILD: Me

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Was Kelly a good girl or a bad girl?

CHILD: She was a bad girl.

INVESTIGATOR: She was a bad girl. Were there any other teachers who were bad?

CHILD: No

INVESTIGATOR: Kelly was the only bad girl? What did Kelly do that made her a bad girl?

CHILD: She readed

INVESTIGATOR: She what?

CHILD: She readed and she came to me and I said no, no, no.

INVESTIGATOR: Did she hurt you?

CHILD: I hurted her.

INVESTIGATOR: How did you hurt her?

CHILD: Because I didn't want to write and she write and I said no, no, no, no and I hit her.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Can you think of a way somebody might have used this to hurt little girls?

CHILD: (indicates the tummy)

INVESTIGATOR: Where else do you think a little girl could have gotten hurt with a wooden spoon?

CHILD: The belly button.

INVESTIGATOR: Where else do you think a little girl might get hit with a wooden spoon? How do you think Kelly used this fork to hurt little girls?

CHILD: Belly button.

INVESTIGATOR: Where else?

(finally after many more persistent questions)

CHILD: Bottom.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: We have gotten a lot of other kids to help us since I last saw you.

CHILD: No. I don't have to.

INVESTIGATOR: Oh come on. Did we tell you she is in jail?

CHILD: Yes. My mother already told me.

INVESTIGATOR: Did I tell you this is the guy who arrested her, put her in there? Don't you want to ask us any questions?

CHILD: No!

* * * * * * *

CHILD: I forgot.

INVESTIGATOR: No you didn't, I know you didn't.

CHILD: I did, I did.

INVESTIGATOR: No, come on.

CHILD: I forgot.

INVESTIGATOR: I thought we were friends last time.

CHILD: I'm not your friend any more.

INVESTIGATOR: How come?

CHILD: Because I hate you.

INVESTIGATOR: Is it because we are talking about stuff you don't want to talk about? What are you a monster now? Huh? ....

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Did she put the fork in your butt? Yes or no?

CHILD: I don't know, I forgot.

INVESTIGATOR: Oh, come on, if you just answer that you can go.

CHILD: I hate you.

INVESTIGATOR: No you don't.

CHILD: Yes I do.

INVESTIGATOR: You love me I can tell. Is that all she did to you, what did she do to your hiney?

INVESTIGATOR (2): What did she do to your hiney? Then you can go.

CHILD: I forgot.

INVESTIGATOR (2): Tell me what Kelly did to your hiney and then you can go. If you tell me what she did to your hiney, we'll let you go.

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Please.

CHILD: Okay, okay, okay.

INVESTIGATOR: Tell me now, what did Kelly do to your hiney?

CHILD: I'll try to remember.

INVESTIGATOR: What did she put in your hiney?

CHILD: The fork.

* * * * * * *

CHILD: I forgot what happened, too.

INVESTIGATOR: You remember. You told your mommy about everything, about the music room, and the nap room. And all the stuff. You want to help her stay in jail, don't you? So she doesn't bother you any more...Your mommy told me that you had a picture of yourself in your room and there was blood on your penis. Who hurt you?

(Note: this child had drawn a picture of himself with a red crayon scribble between his legs)

CHILD: (Child names the defendant).

INVESTIGATOR: So, your penis was bleeding, oh. Your penis was bleeding. Tell me something else: was your hiney bleeding, too?

CHILD: No.

Note: The child never told investigator that his penis was bleeding. The investigator provides this prejudicial statement to the child.

INVESTIGATOR: Did (defendant) bleed, too?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Are you sure she didn't bleed?

CHILD: Yes.... I saw her penis, too.

INVESTIGATOR: Show me on the (anatomical) doll....you saw that? Oh.

CHILD: See doodied on me...She peed on us.

INVESTIGATOR: And did you have to pee on her at all?

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: You did? And who peed on her, you and who else?

CHILD: (Child names a male friend)

INVESTIGATOR: Didn't his penis bleed?

CHILD: Yes.

INVESTIGATOR: It did? What made it bleed? What was she doing?

CHILD: She was bleeding.

INVESTIGATOR: She was bleeding in her penis? Did you have to put your penis in her penis? Yes or No?

CHILD: Yeah...And I peed in her penis.

INVESTIGATOR: What was that like? What did it feel like?

CHILD: Like a shot.

INVESTIGATOR: Did (friend) have to put his penis in her penis, too?

CHILD: Yes, at the same time.

INVESTIGATOR: At the same time? How did you do that?

CHILD: We chopped our penises off.

INVESTIGATOR: So, she was bleeding in her penis and you had your penis and your friend's inside her penis.

CHILD: At the same time.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about (name). What happened to (name)?

CHILD: I don't know

INVESTIGATOR: (name) told me about some of the stuff that happened to you

CHILD: (no response)

INVESTIGATOR: She cares about you. Some of the kids told me that things happened with knives at Wee Care. Do you remember anything like that?

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: I see and did the kids want Kelly to do that peanut butter stuff?

CHILD: I didn't even think that there was a peanut butter

INVESTIGATOR: Well what about licking the peanut butter?

CHILD: There wasn't anything about peanut butter.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: (brings out dolls). Ok now what about the private areas? What happened in the private areas?

CHILD: I don't know

INVESTIGATOR: That's harder to talk about?

CHILD: Yeah

INVESTIGATOR: Does it make you embarrassed?

CHILD: I don't know

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever see Kelly's private spots?

CHILD: I am not too sure

INVESTIGATOR: What about her boobies?

CHILD: I don't even really know about.

INVESTIGATOR: There's some pictures that Sara (McArdle, the prosecutor) has

CHILD: What kind of pictures?

INVESTIGATOR: Kelly like doing something to (name) and I was so surprised. What was she doing?

CHILD: Um, I forgot but I know she did it.

INVESTIGATOR: She do something with a fork to (name)?

CHILD: Sara would know though

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: What are these?

CHILD: Dolls.

INVESTIGATOR: O.K. But what am I pointing to? What's that?

CHILD: An eye, mouth, nose arm.

INVESTIGATOR: What do you call this right here?

CHILD: Vagina.

INVESTIGATOR: What's this right here?

CHILD: Tooshie.

INVESTIGATOR: Tooshie. O.K. What do you call these right up here?

CHILD: I don't know.

INVESTIGATOR: O.K. what do you want to name them? Do you want to name them breasts?

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: Now we are going to pretend that this is a little boy.

CHILD: Let me see the little boy.

INVESTIGATOR: It has no arms or legs or anything, but we are going to pretend that it's a little boy doll, O.K.? What do you call the little thing between the little boy's legs?

CHILD: Um, feet.

INVESTIGATOR: No, up farther between the legs. Right here.

CHILD: Vagina.

INVESTIGATOR: No, it's a vagina on a little girl, what is it on a little boy?

CHILD: Penis.

INVESTIGATOR: Penis, very good. O.K. Now did you ever see a little boy's penis in the school?

CHILD: Yes, M.Z.'s.

INVESTIGATOR: O.K. Who else was there?

CHILD: That's it, only one.

INVESTIGATOR: Just M.Z. and you? Was Kelly there?

CHILD: She was at jail.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Now, did Kelly ever do any bad things to you?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Not at all?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Did Kelly ever hurt you?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Do these look familiar?

CHILD: What are them [sic]?

INVESTIGATOR: You tell me what they are?

CHILD: Knife.

INVESTIGATOR: Knife.

CHILD: Do you have anything to eat in here?

INVESTIGATOR: We're going to pretend that this is a spoon, O.K.?

CHILD: O.K., and this is a knife.

INVESTIGATOR: Did Kelly ever do anything to you with a knife that hurt you? Or bad things to you with a knife?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: No. O.K. Do [sic] she ever do bad things or hurt you with a spoon? -- No. Did she ever do bad things or hurt you with a knife -- I mean fork? OK. What about a wooden spoon? Did you ever see her do bad things or hurt anybody?

CHILD: Um, no.

After concluding the discussion of utensils, and whether Kelly had used utensils on R.F. or any other child, the discussion once again focused on Kelly's alleged mistreatment of R.F. The questioning of this child continued for several more transcript pages. In an attempt to obtain additional information from R.F., the detective told her that he had spoken to several of her friends already and that the information she could provide would help her friends.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Where's that?

CHILD: The butt

INVESTIGATOR: The butt! I love the way she says 'butt.' Boy, she's being really helpful, isn't she?

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: I talked to all of [the kids in your class] and they were telling me how they didn't like the stuff Kelly was doing. Anyway I like talking to you older guys better because you're better to talk to, more like grownups than the little kids in the nursery school. So I'm asking you a favor --

CHILD: Why because they talked about Kelly because she did something bad to them?

INVESTIGATOR: Uh, huh.

CHILD: What?

INVESTIGATOR: She did bad stuff to them.

CHILD: Not me.

INVESTIGATOR: She was hurting some kids in not some nice ways. So I'm wondering if you saw anything. You can help me to find out who some of the hurt kids are so that I can make it all better again. Because they must be pretty upset and pretty mad.

CHILD: What did she do?

INVESTIGATOR: Well, I don't want to tell you exactly what she did because you may know something that I don't know yet, and that can really help . . . These are funny dolls. A little different from those you have seen before.

CHILD: I want to leave.

INVESTIGATOR: Why.

CHILD: Because I don't like --

INVESTIGATOR: Like what? You don't like being here: Well, you'll be out of here in a couple of minutes. And you never have to come back if you don't want to. Anyway these are -- what's different about these dolls, this one's a boy.

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: Because he's got a what? What do you call this?

CHILD: I don't know.

INVESTIGATOR: You know. Is it a peepee [sic] or a penis? What's the word you use?

CHILD: A wee-wee. * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: (then went to a female doll and asked B.M. questions about its anatomy.)

INVESTIGATOR: What are these things. What do we all have here? Breasts or boobies, what do you want to call them?

CHILD: You're teaching me.

INVESTIGATOR: I'm not teaching you, I am asking you. Come on. Don't go throwing stuff around like that. It's not very nice.

CHILD: Stop teaching me this stuff.

INVESTIGATOR: You got [sic] to learn somehow. The little three-year-old kids knew what everything was. And you don't. Anyway, what I did is [sic] show the kids dolls like this and then I pull out this stuff. A wooden spoon, a fork, a knife and a teaspoon, a metal spoon. Your daddy was telling that you would hit mommy. Mommy would hit you on the butt sometimes when you deserved it, right? But aside from that did you ever see Kelly hurt anybody with this?

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: How do you think she might hurt somebody with this? For example, it would hurt, how do you think she might hurt a little boy with this, this wooden spoon.

CHILD: She did that. [Apparently demonstrating with the doll and the spoon that Kelly would smack the boys on the bottom.]

The investigator introduced the possible use of other utensils into the conversation, identifying each to B.M. B.M. steadfastly refused to say that he was hurt with any of the utensils by Kelly. At one point however, he seemed to implicate his mother as the one responsible for the bruises on his back.

INVESTIGATOR: I want to ask you something.

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Don't be a baby. You're acting like a nursery school kid. Come here. Come here a second. B.M., come here. We're not finished yet. Sit down.

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Come here. Seriously, we are going to need your help on this.

CHILD: No I'm not.

INVESTIGATOR: How do you think she would hurt boys and girls, with a fork? A fork in the face? Sticking on the legs? The arms or on the neck? Does that hurt?

CHILD: [Inaudible reply.]

At that point in the questioning B.M. told Investigator (I) that he wanted to leave. Investigator (I), in an effort to put B.M. at ease, changed the tenor of the conversation and began to reassure B.M. that he was safe from Kelly.

INVESTIGATOR: I know it must not be very easy to remember this and to talk about it. It's painful and embarrassing. I also know that she scared a lot of kids and telling them things that weren't true. About monsters and about how she can fly. I heard all those stories from your friends. Did you know Kelly is in jail?

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: If you help me out, when we finish here in a couple of minutes, I will introduce you to the man who put her in jail.

CHILD: I thought you put her in jail.

INVESTIGATOR: I helped to get her there. By talking to all the kids and them telling me the truth about what happened. The more kids we get to tell us what happened the longer she can stay in jail. You see? You said you were real upset when she was hurting your friend or damaging your friends, we do not want her damaging anymore kids, right? So when we finish today, I will introduce you to the man who put her in jail. And, if you want, if you help me out I can have Sgt. Noonan of the local police department show you what a jail cell looks like so that you can see it, how tough it is for her, she cannot break out of jail, like she was telling everybody. I think she was telling everybody she had superpowers, that she could see through walls and stuff like that. She doesn't have anything like that. She's a regular woman. A regular person.

CHILD: Is she really like that? Super powers?

INVESTIGATOR: No. I think you know that she doesn't have super powers. You know what it is, Kelly was sick when she was hurting kids. It's o.k. to like her, she was a nice lady until she got sick. And then after she got sick is when she started hurting kids . . .

INVESTIGATOR: Did she try to bother you and you didn't let her?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: It would be o.k. to tell me the truth if she did try to bother you just so that you can show me how she might just try to hurt these other kids. 'Cause the more we know the longer she will stay in jail. You understand? And I think you would like to know that she doesn't have any secret powers, she can't fly, she can't see through walls, she can't hurt anybody with her vision. . . . What are some of the other stories that she used to scare the kids? That they wouldn't tell anybody. Did she tell them she would hurt their parents or something Do you know if she said that?

CHILD: Yeah.

INVESTIGATOR: The police put her in jail. Because she was hurting you, you know. That's why I really need your help, especially you older kids, you 6-year-olds and kindergartners, because you can talk better than the little kids, and you can show things a little clearer on the dolls. And if you help us out we can take you on a little tour of the jail. And you will be helping to keep her in jail longer so that she doesn't hurt anybody else. Not to mention that you'll feel a lot better once you start --

CHILD: It's scaring me.

INVESTIGATOR: That's o.k. . . . Believe me she is not going to be coming out of jail. She's not going to be hurting you guys anymore. That's why I'm really proud of you, and E.N. and L.J. Which one got hurt the worst?

CHILD: None of them.

INVESTIGATOR: That's not what they told me.

CHILD: I never saw anybody get hurt.

INVESTIGATOR: You never saw anybody get hurt? Did they ever tell you that they got hurt? See, the reason I think that you might have gotten hurt or seen them . . . is that you started to show me on the dolls just exactly what happened. And unless you saw it happen you wouldn't really know, would you?

CHILD: I didn't get hurt.

INVESTIGATOR: No maybe you didn't, maybe you fought her off. Maybe you really didn't hurt then. Maybe you saw your other friends getting hurt and you didn't like it very much. You know.

CHILD: What did Kelly do?

INVESTIGATOR: Oh I think you know. N.J. told me, and G.G. told me that she hurt them in the gym downstairs. And E.N. told me what he saw.

CHILD: What did he see?

INVESTIGATOR: I don't want to tell you what they told me because I want to know if everybody is telling me the truth. If what you tell me goes along with what they said, then I know they were all telling the truth. You know what I mean, jellybean.

CHILD: I want to leave. -- Now!

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever go in the music room? The room with the big black piano?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever see Kelly play Jingle Bells on the piano?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: How did she look when she was sitting at the piano?

CHILD: I never saw her play the piano.

INVESTIGATOR: Did she look like this when she was sitting at the piano?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you ever see Kelly locking any of the kids in the bathroom or closet?

CHILD: No.

INVESTIGATOR: If you did see her hurt any kids would you tell me?

CHILD: No.

B.M. steadfastly refused to implicate Kelly in any way. The interview continued for a few more minutes, ending with Investigator (I)'s final attempts to gain "cooperation" from B.M.

CHILD: I want to leave now.

INVESTIGATOR: I'd hate having to tell your friends that you didn't want to help them.

CHILD: I do.

INVESTIGATOR: I'll have to tell them that you didn't want to though.

The interview ended without any further comment from B.M.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Did Kelly have hair?

CHILD: Nah, I know cause it's grownups... I know about that

INVESTIGATOR: So I guess that means you saw her private parts huh? Did Kelly ask the kids to look at her private parts, or to kiss her private part or..

CHILD: I didn't really do that...I didn't even do it.

INVESTIGATOR: But she made you

CHILD: She made me. She made me� But I couldn't do it...So I didn't even really do it. I didn't do it.

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Did it smell good?

CHILD: shhh

INVESTIGATOR: Her private parts?

CHILD: I don't know

INVESTIGATOR: Did it taste good? Did it taste like chocolate?

CHILD: Ha, ha. No, I didn't even do it

* * * * * * *

INVESTIGATOR: Did she drink the pee pee?

CHILD: Please that sounds just crazy. I don't remember about that. Really don't.

* * * * * * *

All your friends that I mentioned before were telling us that Kelly, the teacher we are talking about, was doing something they didn't like very much. She was bothering them in kind of a private way and they were all pretty brave and they told us everything, and we were wondering if you could help us out too, doing the same thing.

* * * * * * *

I will get you the badge if you help us get this information ... like all your other friends did.

Do you want to sit on my lap? Come here. I am so proud of you. I love big girls like you that tell me what happened -- that aren't afraid because I am here to protect you. Did you ever see what's this right here?...You got such pretty eyes. You are going to grow to be a beautiful young lady. I'm jealous, I'm too old for you.

Final note: Dr. Roland Summit, who originated the Child Sexual Abuse Accommodation Syndrome, also developed by Dr. Suzanne Sgroi, which was referred to by Eileen Treacy in her testimony, noticed that there was a pattern in children's "disclosures" from denial to increasingly lurid stories. Summit believed that the stories were true, but upon reading the transcripts it seems more likely that the children were trying to come up the "right" answer to please the investigator and make the questioning stop.

Summit said: "The child may therefore proceed in sequence from "nothing happened," to "something happened," to "other kids but not to me," to "he tried to do it to me but I wouldn't let him," to "he did it to me one time," to "he did it a lot of times," to "he made me do it to him once," to "I had to do it a lot," to "she was there," to "she did it," to "they made us eat poo," to "they killed a bird," to "I killed a bird."

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